Predestination Hmm?
Posted: Wednesday, November 19, 2008
by Mr. Rick
CR&K Enterprises
My first article, hmm what to write. It must be something people will want to read. I'm guessing the title has to be an attention getter also. Maybe even a little controvesy to get the excitement going. How about predestination? Will that get things going for me and my first article submission?
Ephesians 1:4
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. (NASB)
Ephesians 1:5
In love
He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, (NASB)
Adoption as sons through Jesus to Himself, wow I am part of the family of God. Could I be right about this, am I a member of royalty. What a special position to be in and I did nothing to earn it.
Well what do you think about this?
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Top-level comments on this article: (7 total)Rick, a good effort, but you are missing an important point. Those that are predestined are those "in Christ", or members of His spiritual kingdom. And there are rules of obdeience in order to be "in Him". Study hard.Thank s Joel for taking the time to read and to comment. Rules of obdeience? Can you one or two scripts to look at on that please. Again thankyou and I am studing.
O.K. Rick, read what Jesus says in Matthew 7:21-27. Also read Matthew 19:7 and Timothy 2:15. All these and many more tell us that there are things we must do.Hi JoelVery good scripts and certainly what we should do once we are in Christ, however I reference the Bible in Ephesians 1:4-5 which seems to say that we are predestined before we ourselves knew Christ or are in Christ. I know you are a busy person but I am new to this searchwarp and I really enjoy disscussing these subjects. Thank you for your time. Also I would like to reference a book that the names of all unbelievers will be blotted out of but I cannot find it yet. I will keep searching for it. I think it is in Revelations. Maybe someone can help with that?ThanksHI Rick, there is no reference to non-believers being blotted out. Simply because non-believers are not in the book in the first place.There is however, a reference in Rev 3:5--Jesus is writing to the church of Sardis. He is warning these believers to watch and not turn away during tribulation. It says he who overcomes, He will not blot their name out of the book.This is a clear warning to believers that we must endure til the end. A walk of faith and obedience--there are other applications to this letter, but this is the applicational part that we can all relate to.(Sorry Joel, I stepped in here) But looking foward to anything you might add.Teresa
Hi Rick, I will be back in a bit. Just wanted to say hi and thank you for joining my fan club. I look forward to studying the word with you and all who are interested. Just food for thought, Jesus said he will draw all men unto himself. All men are called, few are chosen. Those who are chosen are those whom according to the foreknowledge of God, he knew would respond. Predestination is never in relation to salvation. Remember Paul was talking to the believers in ephesus when he said what he said. I am looking foward to sharing more scriptures when I return. It would be against God's on character to create men who he choose to go to hell. Instead, wehn we put all of the Scriptures together regarding this issue, we see that the Scriptures teach that God knows who will repent and who will not and according to that knowledge he works in the lives of those who will respond to his call.Lord bless you. And thanks for writing an article that spurs great discussion. You picked a great topic. God bless ! TeresaThanks Teresa for reading and responding to my article. Discussion in this forum is what I was looking for. A couple of things here if anyone has the time or the inclination. Why is predestination never in relation to salvation? I was under the assumption that predestination is = to chosen. If God created us then He most definitly chose to do so at His own pleasure and to know Him. I have to believe He gives everyone ample oppurtunity to know Him and to chose Him. If we go to hell it has to be of our chosing. Regarding the Book of Life, all names of all created written in it? As they die without Christ the names are blotted out. I take that to mean the names are permanant until we chose to turn from God without repentance at the end of our earthly life. I might be wrong on this. I am always searching for the truth that I might pass it on to others who might be struggling also.
Hi Rick, fair question. The reason (I believe and have studied) that predestination is not in relation to salvation is because that would mean God would pre-decide who will go to heaven and who will go to hell. And that is not God's character. Also, you said it right--he gives everyone ample chance to respond to him. This alone rules out the fact that some are predestined for heaven and some hell.Regarding the book of Life, only those who are saved are written in the book of life. The book of life was written from before the foundation of the world. The key (I believe) in understanding all of this is remembering that everything is according to God's foreknowledge. There has always been an arguement of Free will VS Election. However, I believe the Bible teaches both and they go hand in hand, not one or the other.I will walk you through some passages and I hope this will help you see where I am coming from:The call of God to ALL men:John 12:32 "...will draw all peoples unto Myself"John 3:16 " For God so loved the world (not just a select) that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believes in him (not just a select)2 Peter 3:9..."not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance"These three passages are just a few, but none of them are qualified with the word predestination, or only those who are chosen. Why would God say not willing that any should perish, if he didn't mean all. Otherwise it is like saying God said, "I don't care about those who I have already decided are going to hell" God is fair and Just. How would this be just if it were true?THE RESPONSE or THOSE WHO CRY OUT TO GODJohn 6:44" No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him"John 6:37 "All that the Father give Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to me, I will by no means cast out"So, putting these passages together, we see that God calls everyone, and everyone who responds will be accepted. (chosen--predestined to be conformed into the image of his son)Lets move on to the passages that talk about PredestinationRomans 8:29 "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many bethren. Moreover who He predestined, He also called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."We see that in his forknowledge (knowing who would respond) He predestined them to be conformed into the image of his son...never do we read he predestined them to salvation.Very important to see that he saw they would receive his salvation, therefore he called them and did the work in their life.I love this passage: 1 Peter 1:2 "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ". Again we are told that we are elected because of God's foreknowledge.Acts 2:23 "Him being delivered by the determined counsel and foreknowledge of God.." Here we see God makes a determination according to his foreknowledge.Keeping God's foreknowledge in mind, now we go to the passages in Ephesians--1:4 Just as he chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be Holy and without blame before him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ, according to His good pleasure and his will"The reason he was able to choose us (believers) before the foundation of the world is because of his foreknowledge. We also see here that we are chosen to be holy and without blame, not chosen for salvation.All references to predestination are for what happens after salvation. Why were are called, not whether or not we are called.Anyway, there is more to this, but I hope this gets you started and I do hope it helps.As far as the book of life, not all names of every person created are in it--Rev 13:8 "and all who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the earth. " This is another passage that confirms the book was written in the beginning.Again we have in Rev 17:8... And those whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world....of course, in context these revelation passages are talking about those who will be decieved by the anti-christ because they continually reject the truth of God.Sorry, so long. I tried to keep it short and simple. Let me know what you think.God bless you as you seek to draw closer to Him. TeresaThanks Teresa,Yea that was long but you are so eloquent and thourgh. I agree with all that you said and what wonderful selections of Bible verse to chose from. However, there is just one thing I am stuck on. I agree that it is not in God's character to create one to be condemned to hell, but if He only predestined (chose) the ones who would respond to Him, would not the ones who did not respond have an excuse at the throne judgement. Would they be able to say that God did not call to them. I take the whole of all the scripture you quoted as saying that all who were created were chosen but few responded. Those few were given the right to be heirs with Christ.Thanks again! I wish I could express myself as well as you and the other writers do.My problem is that I got a math degree in college and squeeked by the english and writing.Rick K.Hi Rick, I am glad you were able to follow along :-)You did understand what I said correctly. The ones who did not chose him will not have an excuse at the throne judgement for a couple of reasons.1. Romans chapter 1 vse 18-32 tell us that the wrath of God is revealed against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth.We are told that God reveals himself to all people, every person knows when God is speaking to the deep parts of their soul, but they reject him purposely because they do not want the truth. As it tell us in John chapter one that men loved darkness rather than light.2. Also, in Revelation we see that at the great white throne Judgement, that all the those who were not written in the book of life, will face God and the "books" will be opened... These books are different than the book of life and in these books, I believe are written all the deeds of each individual--as Jesus said in Matthew every person will give an account for their life. You can find this account in Rev 20:11-15So I believe in these books it will be revealed to them exactly when they were called. Scripture also tells us that every man will bow and every tongue confess that jesus is Lord.Those who do this before they die have eternal life--those who do it after they die, at judgment, will be cast into the Lake of Fire--the second death.I hope this helps.I am so glad you joined us here on SW. When I first started writing, I wasn't very good at communicating in writing, but I am continuing to learn. I think you do great and the more you practice the more confident you will get. It's all about loving the Lord with all your heart, soul and mind and His Holy Spirit will speak through you. People will understand exactly what God would have them understand.I am praying for you. Keep seeking. We never fully arrive. We all have much to learn, so don't feel alone in your pursuit.Teresa
Rick, I found you! It was the city and state that helped with the connection. This isn't the name you used when you commented on my article, is it? Anyway, I found you.
I think this is a very good first attempt at writing at SearchWarp. You wanted discussion and you got it. As far as the scriptures you selected, I love them. You are being enlightened on several things by two of the best Bible scholars.
We are royalty as the children of God. Our Father is a King! His love isn't conditional, as you know, but there are conditions to His promises. I think it was Joel who said, "obedience."
Continue with your study. It's constant and a process. Learn to enjoy and grow full on the sincere milk of His Word. Before you know it, you'll be feasting on the meat (Word). :)
God bless you as you seek Him.
Avis
Yes Avis,You did find me. I decided to change to a pen name just in case my article smelled bad. I greatly appreciate both Joel and Theresa for their input and disscusion. I have learned alot. I still have a question of sorts with being chosen. I will ask it to Theresa in her response box. Read it if you care, you might have a response also. I know all of this typing takes time because I am super slow at it.Thanks again.Rick K.
Well, Mr. Rick, you know already that I am a skeptic, but I do have a comment. I guess, if I were a believer, I would be a universalist. I could only believe if I believed that everyone gets saved.I know the scriptures say that no man comes to the Father except through him [Jesus], but C.S. Lewis pointed out that the scripture says everyone comes to the father through Jesus, but it does not say that everyone who come to the Father through Christ comes calling on his name.The predestination says to me that Jesus paid the price for our sins, and that is the end of the story. We are saved by Jesus even if we know it or not.I remember a story about a widow that came in to the insurance office to say that she was no longer able to pay the premiums on her husband's life insurance policy. The lady explained that her husband had died three years ago and she was doing all she could to pay the premiums, but this was getting too hard and she was letting the company know that she could no longer pay the bill."You're husband died? Three years ago?" said the agent. "Then you don't have to work to pay these premiums. In fact you have $500,000 coming to you. You have been rich for 3 years and just didn't know it."I think if there is a God, and if there is salvation, then on judgment day some of us will find that we have been saved all along, and the only problem is that we have been living as if that were not true. We could have been enjoying our life more, had we believed that salvation was ours already.Tex,The problem I have with that thinking is that I believe when we have salvation, we have a relationship with the savior. Relationships are a two way street. In order for the relationship to grow there must be communication. With salvation there must be acceptance of this gift you describe so that there can be interaction and a chance for the relationship to grow.Peace to youRick K.
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